Money for nuthin' and chicks for free

[Carnut]

Originally Posted by Johnny Dangerously

I'm just glad that I've got 20+ years until retirement since my 401k may be actually worth something then. But, this all may be a moot point since apparently the Mayan calendar says that the world is going to end on Dec 21, 2012. If it does, fine, it's been a fun ride, but what I'm interested to see is the amount of bozos that whole heartedly believe this, go on a spending spree & rack up an incredible amount of debt thinking that they won't have to pay it off. Then when their first payment comes due, they'll go try & sue somebody for their own stupidity.


`

I think they have already, that's part of the problem.

[Johnny Lupara]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

Ok, I know most of us on the forum are pretty intelligent...so excuse me if this post insults your intelligence....but many Americans don't get this concept. Let me start by asking a question....

Let's say the stock market drops 40% as it has. Then let's say over the course of the next 3 months it goes up 40%. We're back to even right?

Wrong. Math doesn't work that way.

Assume you have $100 in a stock and it drops 40%. You'd then have $60.

Now let's say that $60 increases 40%, that's 60 x 1.4 = $84. You are still down 16% from your original $100.

To get back to your original $100, your $60 investment would have to rise by 67% as shown by 60 x 1.67 = 100.

Obviously I'm alluding to the recent market drop. The one good thing? Many people (me included) are still buying stocks....at today's lower prices. If the market does recover by increasing 67%, then those people will be better off than if the market had never dropped.

So be careful when reading statistics....

I've been reassuring myself recently by thinking that I really won't be considering cashing out my stock for 10 years or so, and that the market will have recovered by then. Unfortunately reality slapped me in the face when I realized that even if it comes back to 14K or so in 10 years, I have lost a whole bunch of money due to lost interest/investment gain and inflationary affects (time value of money). In other words-----screwed......

[Birdman]

I've got it all figured out ,no problem.....I just have to keep working until I die that's all.

[Alloy Dave]

Originally Posted by Birdman

I've got it all figured out ,no problem.....I just have to keep working until I die that's all.

But plumbing is fun and mostly recession proof, so you're good to go.

[Birdman]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

But plumbing is fun and mostly recession proof, so you're good to go.

Yes I have a blast every day at work especially in the hot summers and cold winters.

[Alloy Dave]

Originally Posted by Birdman

Yes I have a blast every day at work especially in the hot summers and cold winters.

For me it would not work, I've had two knee surgeries, so I'd have to do electrical where you're standing more than kneeling. I also hate crawlspaces.

It's great to have a job you enjoy...the job I have now is the best I've had in 20 years.

[Johnny Dangerously]

I got this slide show the other day & it explains what happens in simple enough terms for an engineer to understand.

[Joe G]

That would be funny if it weren't so true.






-

[SLB8SNK]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

Ok, I know most of us on the forum are pretty intelligent...so excuse me if this post insults your intelligence....but many Americans don't get this concept. Let me start by asking a question....

Let's say the stock market drops 40% as it has. Then let's say over the course of the next 3 months it goes up 40%. We're back to even right?

















Wrong. Math doesn't work that way.

Assume you have $100 in a stock and it drops 40%. You'd then have $60.

Now let's say that $60 increases 40%, that's 60 x 1.4 = $84. You are still down 16% from your original $100.

To get back to your original $100, your $60 investment would have to rise by 67% as shown by 60 x 1.67 = 100.

Obviously I'm alluding to the recent market drop. The one good thing? Many people (me included) are still buying stocks....at today's lower prices. If the market does recover by increasing 67%, then those people will be better off than if the market had never dropped.



So be careful when reading statistics....

+1.... smart LONG TERM money says to invest at today's ROCK BOTTOM prices... the up swing will happen and when it does, the gains to these under priced stock will almost guarantee to rise and quickly, to a nice profit! Just my .02

[iceman]

Originally Posted by SLB8SNK

+1.... smart LONG TERM money says to invest at today's ROCK BOTTOM prices... the up swing will happen and when it does, the gains to these under priced stock will almost guarantee to rise and quickly, to a nice profit! Just my .02

While I agree with the theory...the question that remains is have we seen the "rock bottom"? I tend to think we are close but time will tell....I certainly hope so!

[Joe G]

Up almost 900 points today... another roller coaster.


Just means that speculators and institutional investors are still setting the market. It goes up when they jump in and it goes down when they jump out.



-

[Alloy Dave]

Even though today was the 2nd highest point total ever, we're still looking at the worst October in history....that gives some perspective on how this month has gone.

[Alloy Dave]

Here is an interesting article. There are two links because each one relays the same info in slightly different formats...I prefer the second link. First one is more of a "case study" layout. There is some different info between the two.

I don't want to start a flame war, as there is an implication in these stories that people making $250k/year are not wealthy. People making $40k/year will likely disagree with that. But it really points out the extent to which the top 3% of wage earners pay taxes. If you ever want to know who pays for most of the things we get via income taxes in this country....take a look at these data.

There are many other taxes besides income taxes, and some are much more indifferent to income levels (such as sales tax or gas taxes). Income taxes are but one piece of the tax puzzle.

Dave

The American dream - on hold - (1) - FORTUNE

Are you a high earner but not rich yet? Higher taxes ahead - Oct. 26, 2008

[SLB8SNK]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

Here is an interesting article. There are two links because each one relays the same info in slightly different formats...I prefer the second link. First one is more of a "case study" layout. There is some different info between the two.

I don't want to start a flame war, as there is an implication in these stories that people making $250k/year are not wealthy. People making $40k/year will likely disagree with that. But it really points out the extent to which the top 3% of wage earners pay taxes. If you ever want to know who pays for most of the things we get via income taxes in this country....take a look at these data.

There are many other taxes besides income taxes, and some are much more indifferent to income levels (such as sales tax or gas taxes). Income taxes are but one piece of the tax puzzle.

Dave

The American dream - on hold - (1) - FORTUNE

Are you a high earner but not rich yet? Higher taxes ahead - Oct. 26, 2008

Funny that no matter how many times this is printed, the average American (those listening to OBAMA) still can't seem to see that the folks making the big money, or in the top 10% of earners, are paying well over 75% of the tax burden.. so when he spouts off if you make less than $250K... just a bunch of babble... I also agree that this sets the tone for why aspire to make more or work harder... Welcome to the new America... there is a huge jump to where it all even out... but until you get there, if you make over $100k a year, you are paying WAY more tax than the rest! Oh, off my box now....

[Alloy Dave]

I enjoy online interactive things, such as quizzes, calculators, and so on.

Here is a Social Security calculator.

Choose A Benefit Calculator

There are a few varieties. The simplest one takes about 2 minutes...but you must enter your SS # and then it will allow you to estimate your benefit based on different "stop working" ages. This one assumes that you stop working and start collecting benefits in the same year.

This one won't work for me, as I plan to stop working at a certain age, wait, then collect benefits later. As a result, I must use the downloadable detailed calculator. Not for the faint of heart, requires a PhD in SS....but you can get to it from that same page.

Dave

[Alloy Dave]

Once there was a little island country. The land of this country was the tiny island itself. The total money in circulation was 2 dollars as there were only two pieces of 1 dollar coins circulating around.

1) There were 3 citizens living on this island country. A owned the land. B and C each owned 1 dollar.

2) B decided to purchase the land from A for 1 dollar. So, now A and C own 1 dollar each while B owned a piece of land that is worth 1 dollar.

* The net asset of the country now = 3 dollars.

3) Now C thought that since there is only one piece of land in the country, and land is non producible asset, its value must definitely go up. So, he borrowed 1 dollar from A, and together with his own 1 dollar, he bought the land from B for 2 dollars.

*A has a loan to C of 1 dollar, so his net asset is 1 dollar.
* B sold his land and got 2 dollars, so his net asset is 2 dollars.
* C owned the piece of land worth 2 dollars but with his 1 dollar debt to A, his net residual asset is 1 dollar.
* Thus, the net asset of the country = 4 dollars.

4) A saw that the land he once owned has risen in value. He regretted having sold it. Luckily, he has a 1 dollar loan to C. He then borrowed 2 dollars from B and acquired the land back from C for 3 dollars. The payment is by 2 dollars cash (which he borrowed) and cancellation of the 1 dollar loan to C. As a result, A now owned a piece of land that is worth 3 dollars. But since he owed B 2 dollars, his net asset is 1 dollar.

* B loaned 2 dollars to A. So his net asset is 2 dollars.
* C now has the 2 coins. His net asset is also 2 dollars.
* The net asset of the country = 5 dollars. A bubble is building up.


(5) B saw that the value of land kept rising. He also wanted to own the land. So he bought the land from A for 4 dollars. The payment is by borrowing 2 dollars from C, and cancellation of his 2 dollars loan to A.

* As a result, A has got his debt cleared and he got the 2 coins. His net asset is 2 dollars.
* B owned a piece of land that is worth 4 dollars, but since he has a debt of 2 dollars with C, his net Asset is 2 dollars.
* C loaned 2 dollars to B, so his net asset is 2 dollars.

* The net asset of the country = 6 dollars; even though, the country has only one piece of land and 2 Dollars in circulation.


(6) Everybody has made money and everybody felt happy and prosperous.


(7) One day an evil wind blew, and an evil thought came to C's mind. "Hey, what if the land price stop going up, how could B repay my loan. There is only 2 dollars in circulation, and, I think after all the land that B owns is worth at most only 1 dollar, and no more."

(8) A also thought the same way.

(9) Nobody wanted to buy land anymore.

* So, in the end, A owns the 2 dollar coins, his net asset is 2 dollars.
* B owed C 2 dollars and the land he owned which he thought worth 4 dollars is now 1 dollar. So his net asset is only 1 dollar.
* C has a loan of 2 dollars to B. But it is a bad debt. Although his net asset is still 2 dollars, his Heart is palpitating.
* The net asset of the country = 3 dollars again.

(10) So, who has stolen the 3 dollars from the country ? Of course, before the bubble burst B thought his land was worth 4 dollars. Actually, right before the collapse, the net asset of the country was 6 dollars on paper. B's net asset is still 2 dollars, his heart is palpitating.

(11) B had no choice but to declare bankruptcy. C as to relinquish his 2 dollars bad debt to B, but in return he acquired the land which is worth 1 dollar now.

* A owns the 2 coins, his net asset is 2 dollars.
* B is bankrupt, his net asset is 0 dollar. ( he lost everything )
* C got no choice but end up with a land worth only 1 dollar
* The net asset of the country = 3 dollars.

************ **End of the story; BUT ************ *********
There is however a redistribution of wealth.
A is the winner, B is the loser, C is lucky that he is spared.

A few points worth noting -
(1) When a bubble is building up, the debt of individuals to one another in a country is also building up.
(2) This story of the island is a closed system whereby there is no other country and hence no foreign debt. The worth of the asset can only be calculated using the island's own currency. Hence, there is no net loss.
(3) An over-damped system is assumed when the bubble burst, meaning the land's value did not go down to below 1 dollar.
(4) When the bubble burst, the fellow with cash is the winner. The fellows having the land or extending loan to others are the losers. The asset could shrink or in worst case, they go bankrupt.
(5) If there is another citizen D either holding a dollar or another piece of land but refrains from taking part in the game, he will neither win nor lose. But he will see the value of his money or land go up and down like a see saw.
(6) When the bubble was in the growing phase, everybody made money.
(7) If you are smart and know that you are living in a growing bubble, it is worthwhile to borrow money (like A ) and take part in the game. But you must know when you should change everything back to cash.
(8) As in the case of land, the above phenomenon applies to stocks as well.
(9) The actual worth of land or stocks depend largely on psychology.

[Alloy Dave]

Sorry if this is a duplicate. Worth repeating.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics

University of Georgia

[HSURB]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

Here is an interesting article. There are two links because each one relays the same info in slightly different formats...I prefer the second link. First one is more of a "case study" layout. There is some different info between the two.

I don't want to start a flame war, as there is an implication in these stories that people making $250k/year are not wealthy. People making $40k/year will likely disagree with that. But it really points out the extent to which the top 3% of wage earners pay taxes. If you ever want to know who pays for most of the things we get via income taxes in this country....take a look at these data.

There are many other taxes besides income taxes, and some are much more indifferent to income levels (such as sales tax or gas taxes). Income taxes are but one piece of the tax puzzle.

Dave

The American dream - on hold - (1) - FORTUNE

Are you a high earner but not rich yet? Higher taxes ahead - Oct. 26, 2008

Thanks for posting Dave. Good stuff. Good (but depressing).

HSURB

[Alloy Dave]

Not perfectly aligned with money...but a few references...

I scored 15 on the quiz...just stayed above the "older than dirt" line. I hate to see what Carnut scores.

Butch wax?

I do remember metal ice trays with the lever...that's funny.

copy/pasted
'Someone asked the other day, 'What was your favorite fast food when you were growing up?'
'We didn't have fast food when I was growing up,' I informed him. 'All the food was slow.'
'C'mon, seriously. Where did you eat?'

'It was a place called 'at home,'' I explained. ! 'Mom cooked every day and when Dad got home from work, we sat down together at the dining room table, and if I didn't like what she put on my plate I was allowed to sit there until I did like it.'

By this time, the kid was laughing so hard I was afraid he was going to suffer serious internal damage, so I did n't tell him the part about how I had to have permission to leave the table. But here are some other things I would have told him about my childhood if I figured his system could have handled it:

Some parents NEVER! owned their own house, wore Levis , set foot on a golf course, traveled out of the country or had a credit card. In their later years they had something called a revolving charge card. The card was good only at Sears Roebuck. Or maybe it was Sears & Roebuck. Either way, there is no Roebuck anymore. Maybe he died.

My parents never drove me to soccer practice. This was mostly because we never had heard of soccer. I had a bicycle that weighed probably 50 pounds, and only had one speed, (slow). We didn't have a television in our house until I was 5. It was, of course, black and white,

I was 13 before I tasted my first pizza, it was called 'pizza pie.' When I bit into it, I burned the roof of my mouth and the cheese slid off, swung down, plastered itself against my chin and burned that, too. It's still the best pizza I ever had.

We didn't have a car until I was 4. It was an old black Dodge.

I never had a telephone in my room. The only phone in the house was in the living room and it was on a party line. Be fore you could dial, you had to listen and make sure some people you didn't know weren't already using the line.

Pizzas were not delivered to our home. But milk was.

All newspapers were delivered by boys and all boys delivered newspapers. My brother delivered a newspaper, six days a week. It cost 7 cents a paper, of which he got to keep 2 cents. He had to get up at 6 am every morning. On Saturday, he had to collect the 42 cents from his customers His favorite customers were the ones who gave him 50 cents and told him to keep the change. His least favorite customers were the ones who seemed to never be home on collection day.

Movie stars kissed with their mouths shut. At least, they did in the movies. Touching someone else's tongue with yours was called French kissing and they didn't do that in movies. I don't know what they did in French movies. French movies were dirty and we weren't allowed to see them.

If you grew up in a generation before there was fast food, you may want to share some of these memories with your children or grandchildren. Just don't blame me if they bust a gut laughing.

Growing up isn't what it used to be, is it?
MEMORIES from a friend:

My Dad is cleaning out my grandmother's house (she died in December) and he brought me an old Royal Crown Cola bottle. In the bottle top was a stopper with a bunch of holes in it. I knew immediately what it was, but my daughter had no idea. She thought they had tried to make it a salt shaker or something. I knew it as the bottle that sat on the end of the ironing board to 'sprinkle' clothes with because we didn't have steam irons. Man, I am old.

How many do you remember?
Head lights dimmer switches on the floor.
Ignition switches on the dashboard.
Heaters mounted on the inside of the fire wall.
Real ice boxes.
Pant leg clips for bicycles without chain guards.
Soldering irons you heat on a gas burner.
Using hand signals for cars without turn signals.

Older Than Dirt Quiz: Count all the ones that you remember not the ones you were told about
Ratings at the bottom.
1 Blackjack chewing gum
2. Wax Coke-shaped bottles with colored sugar water
3 Candy cigarettes
4. Soda pop machines that dispensed glass bottles
5. Coffee shops or diners with tableside juke boxes
6. Home milk delivery in glass bottles with cardboard stoppers
7. Party lines
8. Newsreels before the movie
9. P..F. Flyers
10. Butch wax
11.. TV test patterns that came on at night after the last show and were there until TV shows started again in the morning. (there were only 3 channels)
12. Peashooters
13. Howdy Doody
14. 45 RPM records
15.. S& H greenstamps
16 Hi-fi's
17 Metal ice trays with lever
18 Mimeograph paper
19 Blue flashbulb
20. Packards
21. Roller skate keys
22.. Cork popguns
23. Drive-ins
24. Studebakers
25 Wash tub wringers
If you remembered 0-5 = You're still young
If you remembered 6-10 = You are getting older
If you remembered 11-15 = Don't tell your age,
If you remembered 16-25 = You're older than dirt!

[Alloy Dave]

WD-40 uses

I have not tested these...this is a copy/paste. HSURB can use it for #7 and #8

And we might want to carry this in the Family Store for those who mess with us...they can use it for #33.


Here are some of the uses:

1) Protects silver from tarnishing
2) Removes road tar and grime from cars
3) Cleans and lubricates guitar strings
4) Gives floor's that 'just-waxed' sheen without making it slippery
5) Keeps flies off cows
6) Restores and cleans chalkboards
7) Removes lipstick stains (yccchh!)
8) Loosens stubborn zippers
9) Untangles jewelry chains.
10) Removes stains from stainless steel sinks
11) Removes dirt and grime from the barbecue grill
12) Keeps ceramic/terra cotta garden pots from oxidizing
13) Removes tomato stains from clothing
14) Keeps glass shower doors free of water spots
15) Camouflages scratches in ceramic and marble floors
16) Keeps scissors working smoothly
17) Lubricates noisy door hinges on vehicles and doors in homes
18) It removes black scuff marks from the kitchen floor! Use WD-40 on nasty tar and scuff marks on flooring. It doesn't seem to harm the finish and you won't have to scrub nearly as hard to get them off. Just remember to open some windows if you have a lot of marks to remove.
19) Easily removes Bug guts on the finish of your car quickly
20) Gives a child's play gym slide a shine for a super fast slide
21) Lubricates gear shift and mower deck lever for ease of handling on riding mowers&NB sp;
22) Rids kids rocking chairs and swings of squeaky noises
23) Lubricates tracks in sticking home windows and makes them easier to open
24) Spraying an umbrella stem makes it easier to open and close
25) Restores and cleans padded leather dashboards in vehicles, as well as vinyl bumpers
26) Restores and cleans roof racks on vehicles
27) Lubricates and stops squeaks in electric fans
28) Lubricates wheel sprockets on tricycles, wagons, and bicycles for easy handling
29) Lubricates fan belts on washers and dryers and keeps them running smoothly
30) Keeps rust from forming on saws and saw blades, and other tools
31) Removes splattered grease on stove
32) Keeps bathroom mirrors from fogging
33) Lubricates prosthetic limbs
34) Keeps pigeons off the balcony (they hate the smell).
35) Removes all traces of duct tape
36) Folks even spray it on their arms, hands, and knees to relieve arthritis pain
37) Florida 's favorite use is: 'cleans and removes love bugs from grills and bumpers
38) The favorite use in the state of New York WD-40 protects the Statue of Liberty from the elements
39) WD-40 attracts fish. Spray a LITTLE on live bait or lures and you will be catching the big one in no time. Also, it's a lot cheaper than the chemical attractants that are made for just that purpose. Keep in mind though, using some chemical laced baits or lures for fishing is not allowed in some states
40) Use it for fire ant bites. It takes the sting away immediately and stops the itch
41) WD-40 is great for removing crayon from walls. Spray on the mark and wipe with a clean rag
42) Also, if you've discovered that your teenage daughter has washed and dried a tube of lipstick with a load of laundry, saturate the lipstick spots with WD-40 and re-wash. Presto! Lipstick is gone
43) If you sprayed WD-40 on the distributor cap, it would displace the moisture and allow the car to start