Ethanol Injection

[08redgt500]

What do you folks know about an ethanol injection setup? I was at my local, actually not so local but trusted , and the guy showed me a setup someone did to a GT500. It consisted of a small, maybe 2-3 gallon plastic tank in the trunk, situated in the spare tire well, fit quite nicely. A line is run up to the engine compartment and fitted into the air tube for the CAI just ahead of the throttle body. There is a pump integrated into the ethanol tank, and a switch installed on the dash to arm and turn the flow on/off. This rig supposedly adds an instant 30HP. My concern is the instantaneous change to octane and how that might affect the ECM, etc? Anyone have any opinions on this type of setup?

[Johnny Lupara]

Originally Posted by 08redgt500

What do you folks know about an ethanol injection setup? I was at my local, actually not so local but trusted , and the guy showed me a setup someone did to a GT500. It consisted of a small, maybe 2-3 gallon plastic tank in the trunk, situated in the spare tire well, fit quite nicely. A line is run up to the engine compartment and fitted into the air tube for the CAI just ahead of the throttle body. There is a pump integrated into the ethanol tank, and a switch installed on the dash to arm and turn the flow on/off. This rig supposedly adds an instant 30HP. My concern is the instantaneous change to octane and how that might affect the ECM, etc? Anyone have any opinions on this type of setup?

..is it really ethanol, or possibly methanol? I think most who use this use methanol, since its distribution is not regulated. My limited understanding is that it is used under wide open throttle, so that you only have to adjust your tune to give a little more spark under that condition. The alcohol serves to keep the engine from knocking (detonation) so that you can advance the spark safely. From the few articles I have read, it works fine, but there needs to be a failsafe or warning, so if the tank is near empty, you don't start putting your foot into it. I am guessing that it is mainly used by those who have really upp'd the horsepower of their engine, kinda like an insurance policy. I hope some others weigh in on this also, since all my knowledge is just from reading.

[iceman]

It's similar to Nitrous but rather than leaning the mixture it makes it richer. It's not a bad option but I don't know that it's really needed either. I am supposed to let a guy test a plate that he has created that sits between the SC and the Intercooler and has the hook up so the meth. gets fired right into there rather than way up at the TB. I don't know that I would put it on my car but I think it is worth looking into. I don't want to be messing with my tune too much as the one I have from Lund is fantastic. Especially nice now that I changed the SC belt and am not slipping anymore. A huge improvement!

[twobjshelbys]

Ethanol == Everclear. Straight grain alcohol, 190+proof (95%, which is chemically as close to 100% as you can get since when you open up the bottle to pour it into your cocktail glass it will absorb water vapor from the air and become 185 proof quickly. I remember in chemistry class we figured out just how much it would absorb but I have long since destroyed those memory cells. Partial pressures and all that crap. I decided electrons were more fun to work with and alcohol should be consumed not studied.

[mrfarmdog]

I posted this on the Fordgt500forum but will post here as well since some people are interested...

I have read up on it some as I was considering. Methenol does net a few more HP but the benefit is it cools down the charge and increases octane. However in order to get the benefit you have to tune your car, basically putting in a race tune. Since you are running the higher octane you can run more timing and a tune that will not pull timing, thus netting more HP.

Here are a couple of good articles if you haven't seen them

Snow Performance Boost Cooler - Tech Information - 5.0 Mustang 7 Super Fords Magazine

Methanol vs. Racing Fuel - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine

[Birdman]

I use it on my t-Bird because I don't have an intercooler and it works great , gained over 100 rwhp with it .

That said it is not something I would use on my GT500 ,don't need it. It is really meant for drag racing use which I don't do with the Mustang.

My

[Dactyl]

Methanol Injection is a good source of power and a good application for drag racing as it can help to further reduce IAT2's because of the richening facet. Similar to running higher octane. Regardless, I would employ the services of a well qualified tuner (Jon Lund for example) who knows how to tune a car with Meth Injection. Additionally, it could be wired in to the car to "spray" at WOT only. At one point I considered Meth Injection for a road course application however I didn't want to run around the road course with an 8 gallon reservoir in the spare tire compartment and have to refill it in between sessions. That's a lot of windshield washer fluid.

[08redgt500]

Thanks for all the insights and suggestions...

Now I'm actually not sure which one the speed shop tech did say the guy was using, I still think he said ethanol, but maybe not and I mis-spoke when I started the thread. E85 is mostly ethanol, corn squeezin's and all. ;) I believe you can buy de-natured alcohol, which is ethanol with a little methanol added to make it non-potable; therefore not a controlled substance and no liquor tax. We used de-natured alcohol in the boat stove, years ago; which in the scheme of things is a lot safer than little tanks of propane banging around, or at least that was one opinion back then. It can get pretty rough when ocean racing(sail), which is what we were doing at times. ;)

The question remains which would be better for this type of rig, do people use both?

Ethanol & Methanol Defined

Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in thermometers. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol.

Ethanol is abbreviated as EtOH, using the common organic chemistry notation of representing the ethyl group (C2H5) with Et. This designation is used both by EMS and Hospital ER staff when describing alcohol intoxication, and is found in most chemistry textbooks as well.

Ethanol is a straight-chain alcohol, and its molecular formula is C2H5OH. An alternative notation is CH3-CH2-OH, which indicates that the carbon of a methyl group (CH3-) is attached to the carbon of a methylene group (-CH2-), which is attached to the oxygen of a hydroxyl group (-OH).

Its empirical formula is C2H6O, making it a constitutional isomer of dimethyl ether.

Except for use of fire, the fermentation of sugar into ethanol is one of the earliest organic reactions employed by humanity. The intoxicating effects of ethanol consumption have been known since ancient times. In modern times, ethanol intended for industrial use is also produced from by-products of petroleum refining.

Ethanol has widespread use as a solvent of substances intended for human contact or consumption, including scents, flavorings, colorings, and medicines. In chemistry, it is both an essential solvent and a feedstock for the synthesis of other products. It has a long history as a fuel for heat and light and also as a fuel for internal combustion engines.


Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, carbinol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, is a chemical compound with chemical formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH). It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, toxic liquid with a distinctive odor that is somewhat milder and sweeter than ethanol. At room temperature it is a polar liquid and is used as an antifreeze, solvent, fuel, and as a denaturant for ethanol. It is also used for producing biodiesel via transesterification reaction.

Methanol is produced naturally in the anaerobic metabolism of many varieties of bacteria, and is ubiquitous in the environment. As a result, there is a small fraction of methanol vapor in the atmosphere. Over the course of several days, atmospheric methanol is oxidized by oxygen with the help of sunlight to carbon dioxide and water.

Methanol burns in air forming carbon dioxide and water:

2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O

A methanol flame is almost colorless in bright sunlight conditions, causing an additional safety hazard around open methanol flames.

Because of its toxic properties, methanol is frequently used as a denaturant additive for ethanol manufactured for industrial uses— this addition of methanol economically exempts industrial ethanol from the rather significant 'liquor' taxes that would otherwise be levied as it is the essence of all potable alcoholic beverages. Methanol is often called wood alcohol because it was once produced chiefly as a byproduct of the destructive distillation of wood. It is now produced synthetically by a multi-step process: natural gas or coal gas and steam are reformed in a furnace to produce hydrogen and carbon monoxide; then, hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases react under pressure in the presence of a catalyst. Methanol is also produced from the gasification of a range of renewable biomass materials, such as wood and black liquor from pulp and paper mills.

[Dactyl]

Originally Posted by 08redgt500

Thanks for all the insights and suggestions...

Now I'm actually not sure which one the speed shop tech did say the guy was using, I still think he said ethanol, but maybe not and I mis-spoke when I started the thread. E85 is mostly ethanol, corn squeezin's and all. ;) I believe you can buy de-natured alcohol, which is ethanol with a little methanol added to make it non-potable; therefore not a controlled substance and no liquor tax. We used de-natured alcohol in the boat stove, years ago; which in the scheme of things is a lot safer than little tanks of propane banging around, or at least that was one opinion back then. It can get pretty rough when ocean racing(sail), which is what we were doing at times. ;)

The question remains which would be better for this type of rig, do people use both?

Ethanol & Methanol Defined

Ethanol, also called ethyl alcohol, pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol, is a volatile, flammable, colorless liquid. It is a psychoactive drug, best known as the type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages and in thermometers. In common usage, it is often referred to simply as alcohol.

Ethanol is abbreviated as EtOH, using the common organic chemistry notation of representing the ethyl group (C2H5) with Et. This designation is used both by EMS and Hospital ER staff when describing alcohol intoxication, and is found in most chemistry textbooks as well.

Ethanol is a straight-chain alcohol, and its molecular formula is C2H5OH. An alternative notation is CH3-CH2-OH, which indicates that the carbon of a methyl group (CH3-) is attached to the carbon of a methylene group (-CH2-), which is attached to the oxygen of a hydroxyl group (-OH).

Its empirical formula is C2H6O, making it a constitutional isomer of dimethyl ether.

Except for use of fire, the fermentation of sugar into ethanol is one of the earliest organic reactions employed by humanity. The intoxicating effects of ethanol consumption have been known since ancient times. In modern times, ethanol intended for industrial use is also produced from by-products of petroleum refining.

Ethanol has widespread use as a solvent of substances intended for human contact or consumption, including scents, flavorings, colorings, and medicines. In chemistry, it is both an essential solvent and a feedstock for the synthesis of other products. It has a long history as a fuel for heat and light and also as a fuel for internal combustion engines.


Methanol, also known as methyl alcohol, carbinol, wood alcohol, wood naphtha or wood spirits, is a chemical compound with chemical formula CH3OH (often abbreviated MeOH). It is the simplest alcohol, and is a light, volatile, colourless, flammable, toxic liquid with a distinctive odor that is somewhat milder and sweeter than ethanol. At room temperature it is a polar liquid and is used as an antifreeze, solvent, fuel, and as a denaturant for ethanol. It is also used for producing biodiesel via transesterification reaction.

Methanol is produced naturally in the anaerobic metabolism of many varieties of bacteria, and is ubiquitous in the environment. As a result, there is a small fraction of methanol vapor in the atmosphere. Over the course of several days, atmospheric methanol is oxidized by oxygen with the help of sunlight to carbon dioxide and water.

Methanol burns in air forming carbon dioxide and water:

2 CH3OH + 3 O2 → 2 CO2 + 4 H2O

A methanol flame is almost colorless in bright sunlight conditions, causing an additional safety hazard around open methanol flames.

Because of its toxic properties, methanol is frequently used as a denaturant additive for ethanol manufactured for industrial uses— this addition of methanol economically exempts industrial ethanol from the rather significant 'liquor' taxes that would otherwise be levied as it is the essence of all potable alcoholic beverages. Methanol is often called wood alcohol because it was once produced chiefly as a byproduct of the destructive distillation of wood. It is now produced synthetically by a multi-step process: natural gas or coal gas and steam are reformed in a furnace to produce hydrogen and carbon monoxide; then, hydrogen and carbon monoxide gases react under pressure in the presence of a catalyst. Methanol is also produced from the gasification of a range of renewable biomass materials, such as wood and black liquor from pulp and paper mills.

The whole purpose of Methanol Injection (yes, it is Methanol/Water mixture) is to reduce the after supercharger air temps. It acutally helps to reduce the dreaded IAT2's (downstream temps, after supercharger air temps) As the supercharger rotates faster under throttle you further create heat which in turn will begin to reduce horsepower. The stock tune actually pulls begins to pull timing once the IAT2's exceed 100 degrees. With most aftermarket tunes the timing retard does not begin until 130-135 degrees IAT2 is reached.

I spoke extensively with Ford and Ford Racing about this subject. Instead of the constant refilling and running of hoses and injection and tuning aspects of Methanol injection to cool downstream temps I went a different direction.

That's when I developed the Dual Pass/ Dual Puller fan Heat exchanger to more effectively reduce IAT2's and maintain horsepower by reducing the IAT2 charge. If you call and talk to Matt Snow at Snow Performance and ask him about what the product does he should tell you that it is designed to reduce IAT2's and help maintain horsepower. The effectiveness is to raise the octane of the fuel. You can reduce IAT2's the same way by using Race Gas.

The whole research and development I did with the heat exchanger was to prevent (for myself) an added reservoir and lines in the car. The dual puller fans pull the heat out very effectively and reduced my IAT2's by 50 degrees over the Steeda aftermarket Heat Exchanger and by 30 degrees over the AFCO aftermarket Heat Exchanger.

I have datalogged stock, Kenne Bell, Whipple cars with stock Heat exchangers, AFCO and Steeda Heat Exchangers. In all instances at WOT the IAT2's exceeded 150 degrees at WOT first pass. Timing is being pulled in all datalogs. One difference. Each of the cars I data logged were datalogged at night and the Ambient Inlet Temperature was between 69 and 70 degrees. All of my personal IAT2 measurements were done on track during the day with high humidity and average ambient inlet temperatures at 90 degrees plus. I will be datalogging my car at Daytona in two weeks and hopefully have similar ambient inlet temperatures (70 degrees or so)

Final point. This is really a discussion of IAT2 reduction. The dual puller fan heat exchanger after installation is "Hassle Free" where as the Methanol Injection requires constant monitoring and refilling with boost juice or gauges and re-tuning. Also, you have to then concern yourself with boost pressure on the Methanol Injection system.

Also, I am about to add new positive news to the Dual Pass/Dual Puller Fan Heat Exchanger Thread.

My 2 cents. Good luck.

[08redgt500]

Dactyl

Thank you for the very thorough reply and writeup, it's much appreciated. Still just in the very early phases of considering this type of mod. The heat exchanger you spoke of sounds like a very good approach. If I'm able to hang onto this car, I'll certainly look into it.

[Dactyl]

Originally Posted by 08redgt500

Dactyl

Thank you for the very thorough reply and writeup, it's much appreciated. Still just in the very early phases of considering this type of mod. The heat exchanger you spoke of sounds like a very good approach. If I'm able to hang onto this car, I'll certainly look into it.

I hear ya man. This economy sucks. All of these billions of dollars that have been thrust into these companies. What if they gave every registered voter/non-felon/american or naturalized citizen $500K. Then tax us on it. They would get half of their money back and the economy would be kickin. Like that would ever happen.

Let me know if you have any other questions. I've spent thousands trying stuff and throwing it away. I know what works at what doesn't so far. What's next? Who knows.

[68fastback]

I think Ford's mid-term strategy (post EcoBoost stage-1) is becoming clearer

Ford may be going in the direction of Ethanol Boosting Systems (EBS) and as a natural outgrowth of EcoBoost stage-1 (for lack of a better term) by using both gas and ethanol in a hybrid port-injected *and* direct-injected turbocharged engine ...a sort of spark-managed HCCI-like gas enigne with efficiency and power levels exceeding those of diesels, but without the size, weight and emissions levels of diesels (or even today's gas engines).

In this unclassified paper Ford presented to DOE about a year ago (and which folks on BOF believe is on-track toward an F-series engine at some point after near-term EcoBoost) the concept, merits, challenges and status (as of a year ago) are explained. By using the heat of vaporization of the alcohol-based fuel to manage the combustuion temperatures of the primary [gasoline] fuel, extreme cylinder pressures and ear-nstocimetric mixtures are possible without detonation or NOx emissions problems! ...not unlike meth-injection used by racers but with an expanded starategy (as the above link explains).

For every 1 gal of ethanol consumed, 5.2 gallons of gasoline are saved (see charts in above link) -- this is clearly the 'sell' to the DOE and completely consistent with levering limited E85 production for maximum CO emissions reduction -- a brilliant strategy in the present climate, especially since it's a natural outgrowth of EcoBoost stage-1 shipping later this year in Lincoln, Taurus and Flex. The only downside seems to be getting folks to fill two tanks, but it will also run on either fuel alone (E85 and/or gas).

Second heading in this write-up contains a brief summary of EBS. The approach is similar to how racers use methanol but clearly more specialized and optimized in a dual-fuel dual-VVT TT implementation (EBS-GTDI, for lack of a better term) which Ford cleverly calls an "E85-optimized [gas] engine."

If a 7.0L EBS GTDI performs like an 11.0L diesel(!) that would make a 5.0L similar in performance to an 8.0L diesel. Could this why Ford has consistently telegraphed that they do not forsee a major shift toward diesel given the fuel's cost, EcoBoost, and 'other' technologies? (I think so!)

The principle investigator in that DOE paper (Apoorv Agarwal of Ford) was one of Ford's powertrain research experts who also was intimately involved in HCCI engine research and modelling prior to this 2001 paper presented by Ford at the SAE 2001 World Congress in Detroit in March 2001.

This Wiki summary gives insight on the merits of HCCI which now would get it's "control" by a combination of EBS (temperature) and variable effective cylinder pressures via computer-interactive Turbocharging (my inference from other reading) and dual VCT.

This August '08 article explains the EBS-TT tack that it seems Ford is on, tho it's not a Ford article and therefore doesn't address Ford's specific integration of the technologies, but is a nice summary of several of the concepts and benefits.

Some of the discussions I've seen indicate that Ford may already have a 450HP EBS GTDI 3.5 V6 planned to follow the 350 HP EcoBoost that ships later this year, and believe that a 5.0L V8 version is in development for F-series to follow the rumored EcoBoost F150 V8 -- that follows the 5.0 Coyote 'gap-filler' PI engine (next year?).

Note that these EBS-GTDI Ford designs all need to be super strong since they experience cylinder pressures as high or higher than conventonal diesels so are all (CGI) compacted graphite iron blocks (like Ford's new NASCAR engine and the 5.0L modular Yates Racing built as a NASCAR strawman two years ago), but don't require any of the problematic physical compression-change appartus of the GM approach which uses a servo-driven cammed-offset connecting rod journal, I bleieve -- Ford's appraoch is all done with temperature and compression management via fuels, variable-timing, and variable-boost at/near stochiometry -- with the side benefit that they can also run just fine (but at reduced power/torque) if one of the fuels runs out.

To my mind this has the potential to be both a practical an truly brilliant strategy to follow EcoBoost stage-1 in 2013+ -- along with alternative fuel/electric systems, etc. I especially like that nothing in the EBS-GTDI approach sacrifices power one bit, as evidenced by 450HP 3.5V6s (Lincoln concept) with 20-30% better mileage than todays engines of similar displacement (that's like 40-50%[?] better than today's non-EB enignes of similar power) That's on the same curve as a 650bHP 5.0 V8 ...possibly coming to an F-150 near you in the next several model-years???

-Dan

[Birdman]

Wow Dan great information as usual . Thanks for posting all the wonderful 'links' too.
That's going to be one strong engine to handle those 150 bar peak cylinder pressures. I see they will be using 'piston squirter's ' to cool the pistons too.

The high pressure fuel pumps will be driven by the intake cams too.
They will also be using twin independent variable cam timing. Not only will this engine be very efficient but will have great power too with the use of the twin turbos.

I wonder how they plan to make the duel fuel tanks a viable option.

[68fastback]

Originally Posted by Birdman

Wow Dan great information as usual . Thanks for posting all the wonderful 'links' too.
That's going to be one strong engine to handle those 150 bar peak cylinder pressures. I see they will be using 'piston squirter's ' to cool the pistons too.

The high pressure fuel pumps will be driven by the intake cams too.
They will also be using twin independent variable cam timing. Not only will this engine be very efficient but will have great power too with the use of the twin turbos.

I wonder how they plan to make the duel fuel tanks a viable option.

Seems piston squirters will be popular ...EB/GTDI engines get them (rumored on the '11MY 5.0 Coyote and 5.4 alloy?)

Yeah, I imagine the dual fuel tanks could be viable because, in the Ford approach, you don't use much E85. It's seems primarily for cooling thereby enabling big gas savings from the efficiencies of extreme [and variable] effective CRs. Ford seems carefull not to be specific anywhere on actual/effective CRs but the cylinder pressures they state seem to imply effective CRs in well in excess of 20:1 (e.g. 10:1 with well over 15# peak boost.

I also found it interesting that for EB-1 the DI is for the gas but for EB-2 it would seem it's PI for the gas and DI for the E85 (shot from the intake side). There appears to be other appartus under the intake in that diagram but unclear what it is.

It did make me think for a minute that the project "777" 7.0L E85 experimental H/Boss in the Roush/Bowles yellow mule might have had PI+DI at some point. The two mags that covered it mentioned 9.40s/140s, yet we now know it eventually went 8.80s/hi-150s. That's the diff between +/- 800rw and 1000rw in a 3350lb ride. In the mag pics you can clearly see the dual-PIs/cyl that were presumeably pumping all that E85, but who knows what lurked under that intake in later testing in the 8s? -lol. I do believe that was only an E85 motor, but the dual-fuel thought did go thru my mind as I was reading that Ford DOE pitch ;-)

[68fastback]

I was thinking some more on that DOE pitch... I find this approach more interesting the more I think about it.

Not only do you get much more factory power from a given displacement (about 130HP/L) but the DI-ethanol effecively makes pulling timing a thing of the past and a last-restort pre-detonation safety-net strategy rather than the first thing the tune does because it should never occur -- especially since the E85DI is used when under severe loads and/or high torque so that the high effective CRs can be fully exploited.

This would seem to make for an ideal race set-up as well! ...tho I bet the ECU and calibration logic/tables will be way more complex than today's engines.