Stock 8.8 Rear End Strength??

[gr8snkbite]

thx iceman..guess i should have read his post mor thoroughly..i'll canvas the store..

[Alloy Dave]

Originally Posted by gr8snkbite

i guess i just dont understand how the frpp cover can make such an impact on strength. what does it do differently than stock.

It has two studs with locknuts that go through the case. These are used to "preload" the carrier bearings on the 3rd member. During hard acceleration the bearing caps try to "push away" from the housing....towards the back of the car. The preload helps keep them there...giving some extra strength in that regard.

Take alook at the two bolts on this one to see...
Google Image Result for http://www.lmperformance.com/images/parts/small-jpg/m4033g1.jpg

[gr8snkbite]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

It has two studs with locknuts that go through the case. These are used to "preload" the carrier bearings on the 3rd member. During hard acceleration the bearing caps try to "push away" from the housing....towards the back of the car. The preload helps keep them there...giving some extra strength in that regard.

Take alook at the two bolts on this one to see...
Google Image Result for http://www.lmperformance.com/images/parts/small-jpg/m4033g1.jpg

got it..thx AD. Does this thicker girdle stick further out in the rear? Hence clearance issue for the watts link? I see the one we have in the staore also has a ford racing bar across the back. Don't want any clearance issue for my link.

Additionally, i was reading about the 373 gears in the store. Says their a new style, cut differently. Has anyone used these newer gears?

[iceman]

Originally Posted by gr8snkbite

got it..thx AD. Does this thicker girdle stick further out in the rear? Hence clearance issue for the watts link? I see the one we have in the staore also has a ford racing bar across the back. Don't want any clearance issue for my link.

Additionally, i was reading about the 373 gears in the store. Says their a new style, cut differently. Has anyone used these newer gears?

You know it does stick out more but I don't know about the watts link. There are 2 versions - the one for our cars does not stick out as much more and it clears my steeda panhard bar and brace OK but I have not seen a watts link set up to say for sure....you my have to be the test subject.

[gr8snkbite]

Originally Posted by iceman

You know it does stick out more but I don't know about the watts link. There are 2 versions - the one for our cars does not stick out as much more and it clears my steeda panhard bar and brace OK but I have not seen a watts link set up to say for sure....you my have to be the test subject.

test mule aye...what do you mean 2 versions? 2 versions for our car alone? Or two versions, one being for our car? I'm assuming (rarely) the one in the store is for our car. Same for those gears.

Where's Joe.....

[Darkside]

Since my need to keep the 8.8 comes from wanting to upgrade my suspension to a Griggs setup, which I don't think is compatible with a 9", while being strong enough to still run the 1/4 with significant power upgrades.

I have come up with what I think is a very good 8.8 solution that will take any abuse I may dish out at the drag strip while still being compatible with the Griggs rear suspension.

Say Hello to the Mark Williams 8.8 rebuild (upgrade)

From the Mark Williams Website, Mark Williams Enterprises- Homepage

8.8 COMPLETE REBUILDS
MW can do a complete rework of your existing 8.8 rear. Just ship us your stock housing and we will perform all the necessary modifications for heavy-duty street-strip use or Pro-Class drag racing. The first step is to replace the stock housing ends with our ends (either 58510 or 58511), eliminating the troublesome c-clip axle retention clips. We have special ends that will accept your present 8.8" brakes (disc or drum), or can install any end based on your brake requirement. The tubes are welded to the center with a special stainless TIG process. A steel main cap is fitted on the drivers side to eliminate the possibility of stock cap failure. An Eaton™ posi-traction or 35 spline spool unit is installed in conjunction with your choice of 3.55 to 5.14 ratio Richmond™ gears. MasterLine™ axles are available with either 5 hole or 4 hole wheel patterns. Special ½" screw in wheel studs are used,and are available in either 2" or 3" long to match your wheels. The Pro-Class drag unit features Hi-Torque ™ axles in solid or gun drilled models and Drive stud wheel studs. The rear is assembled by MW's professionals with new bearings and seals, and includes necessary modification to your existing brake system for the new housing ends. When rebuilding the rear we can change the wheel to wheel width without additional charge. Your completed rear is crated for shipping protection, and returned ready to bolt in and run, including 3 quarts of Torco gear lube.

ML-R01 8.8” Rebuild, 31 spline ML Axles & Posi . .2362.26

[iceman]

Originally Posted by gr8snkbite

test mule aye...what do you mean 2 versions? 2 versions for our car alone? Or two versions, one being for our car? I'm assuming (rarely) the one in the store is for our car. Same for those gears.

Where's Joe.....

The one in the store is the lower profile one that works on the platform we have (05 +). I don't know anything about the "new gears" but wouldn't be afraid of them.

Originally Posted by Darkside

Since my need to keep the 8.8 comes from wanting to upgrade my suspension to a Griggs setup, which I don't think is compatible with a 9", while being strong enough to still run the 1/4 with significant power upgrades.

I have come up with what I think is a very good 8.8 solution that will take any abuse I may dish out at the drag strip while still being compatible with the Griggs rear suspension.

Say Hello to the Mark Williams 8.8 rebuild (upgrade)

From the Mark Williams Website, Mark Williams Enterprises- Homepage

8.8 COMPLETE REBUILDS
MW can do a complete rework of your existing 8.8 rear. Just ship us your stock housing and we will perform all the necessary modifications for heavy-duty street-strip use or Pro-Class drag racing. The first step is to replace the stock housing ends with our ends (either 58510 or 58511), eliminating the troublesome c-clip axle retention clips. We have special ends that will accept your present 8.8" brakes (disc or drum), or can install any end based on your brake requirement. The tubes are welded to the center with a special stainless TIG process. A steel main cap is fitted on the drivers side to eliminate the possibility of stock cap failure. An Eaton™ posi-traction or 35 spline spool unit is installed in conjunction with your choice of 3.55 to 5.14 ratio Richmond™ gears. MasterLine™ axles are available with either 5 hole or 4 hole wheel patterns. Special ½" screw in wheel studs are used,and are available in either 2" or 3" long to match your wheels. The Pro-Class drag unit features Hi-Torque ™ axles in solid or gun drilled models and Drive stud wheel studs. The rear is assembled by MW's professionals with new bearings and seals, and includes necessary modification to your existing brake system for the new housing ends. When rebuilding the rear we can change the wheel to wheel width without additional charge. Your completed rear is crated for shipping protection, and returned ready to bolt in and run, including 3 quarts of Torco gear lube.

ML-R01 8.8” Rebuild, 31 spline ML Axles & Posi . .2362.26

They do good work. I talked to the guys here about them and they felt like that may be over kill unless I wanted to go hard core drag strip. Also make sure that you can keep the anti lock brake sensors on that set up. I can't recall if those had to come off on their axles or not. THe Moser's allow you to keep that as it is pressed on so it preforms like stock in that area.

If you want to drop that kind of $ it's a freat option though. If you want to drop much less then the girdle, true trac, and if you want to axles is a nice option.

[purdueranger]

9" end housing would be nice on a 8.8, I take my axles out all the time and changing wheel bearings is a breeze because I have non C-clip axles in my Camaro.

The thicker design does help in reducing the center section from deflecting some. The biggest part of the deflection is the 2 main caps that hold the carrier in place. I would go with the Eaton or the Detroit true trac. I have a Eaton on my car and love it. It uses clutches unlike the detroit that uses helical cut gears. The girdle has the 2 set screws that add preload onto the center of the caps and that will help hold them inplace. Think of this as squishing your bread to hold the meat inplace while you eat.

As Iceman has said that I had a full bolt-on Jeep with a mild cam that with 153k on the clock would still rip on ricers and diesel trucks. I have a 2500 Dodge Ram to tow my camaro to the race track that I got for a steal from a good friend of mine.

My camaro right now on a stock bottom end and stock heads pushes 600HP on the bottle. It's has a set of heads and more bottle going at it in hopes for a stock bottom end 9 second pass or 3.


Back on track now. With the welding the steel tubes to the cast center section is tough, you can do it with a heavy duty mig or stick welder. What you are trying to accomplish is keeping them in place. Remember your suspension parts are mounted to that, except for the upper mount on your stang. I don't have an upper mount on my Camaro but I have what is called a torque arm that keeps the axle from twisting up or down. That with violent launches actually deflects the housing even with a girdle.

Steel is mainly iron and carbon. Steel has a bunch of other "metals," magnesium, chromium, ect, in it to change its hardness, finish, strength, ect.

[mrfarmdog]

Chris post up some pics of the girdle!

[Alloy Dave]

Originally Posted by gr8snkbite

got it..thx AD. Does this thicker girdle stick further out in the rear? Hence clearance issue for the watts link? I see the one we have in the staore also has a ford racing bar across the back. Don't want any clearance issue for my link.

Additionally, i was reading about the 373 gears in the store. Says their a new style, cut differently. Has anyone used these newer gears?

Yes it will stick out a bit further. As for the Watts link, there are several types/brands...some even mount to the rear end cover. I'd recommend you select a brand first, then try to find someone with that setup...I think lammbo on the other forum had one? I forget the brand names, but this was discussed at length on TS.

Not sure if Birdman has a Watts link...might try him too.

Edit: you might be wondering..."ok, so if I find a brand I like, but no one has that same brand AND the rear cover...how do I know it will work?" You can probably bribe them into measuring the horizontal distance from the rear pumpkin face to the watts link closest point, and this would tell you how much room you have...then do the research on the rear cover (call the company) and ask how much thicker it is in total (not just the flange thickness)...and voila.

[gr8snkbite]

Originally Posted by Alloy Dave

Yes it will stick out a bit further. As for the Watts link, there are several types/brands...some even mount to the rear end cover. I'd recommend you select a brand first, then try to find someone with that setup...I think lammbo on the other forum had one? I forget the brand names, but this was discussed at length on TS.

Not sure if Birdman has a Watts link...might try him too.

Edit: you might be wondering..."ok, so if I find a brand I like, but no one has that same brand AND the rear cover...how do I know it will work?" You can probably bribe them into measuring the horizontal distance from the rear pumpkin face to the watts link closest point, and this would tell you how much room you have...then do the research on the rear cover (call the company) and ask how much thicker it is in total (not just the flange thickness)...and voila.

Thx AD. I already have the fays2 link, just havent' put it on yet. Waiting to clean and paint the nasty butt. Good advice. Will research...

[iceman]

This is all I have right now - the car is in the shop as I decided to let them fight the header battle this time so I could use the garage for the jeep lift. I got put on hold when the weather hit and all of the daily drivers broke so my car is just sitting there...at least it is inside though.

The Girdle is on in this pic of our cars but you can't see it so i am just posting because I like the pic really

[gr8snkbite]

nice pic's iceman. i imagine that the girdle instructions indicate the amount of re-load to set with those studs?

[iceman]

FRPP girdle installation instructions recommend the girdle-to-differential bolts be torqued to 20 to 25 ft-lb but the rubberized girdle gasket instructions recommend a 15 ft-lb pass followed by a final torque of 30 ft-lb. Then the load bolts are finger tightend until resistance is encountered indicating that the load bolt has encountered the bearing cap. Then the load bolts are then tightened to 8 ft with an Allen wranch attachment. The jam nuts on the outside of the load bolts are then tightened to 30 ft-lb.

Then I just put in the royal purple gear oil through the fill hole and done.

Edit - here is an installed pic. Note the fill hole and drain (also a nice feature).

[gr8snkbite]

Originally Posted by iceman

FRPP girdle installation instructions recommend the girdle-to-differential bolts be torqued to 20 to 25 ft-lb but the rubberized girdle gasket instructions recommend a 15 ft-lb pass followed by a final torque of 30 ft-lb. Then the load bolts are finger tightend until resistance is encountered indicating that the load bolt has encountered the bearing cap. Then the load bolts are then tightened to 8 ft with an Allen wranch attachment. The jam nuts on the outside of the load bolts are then tightened to 30 ft-lb.

Then I just put in the royal purple gear oil through the fill hole and done.

Edit - here is an installed pic. Note the fill hole and drain (also a nice feature).

good info and nice pic. i imagine then that the 8ft/lb torque is putting the pre-load on the beaing caps..right?

[iceman]

that's my understanding - it just kinds firms it all up in there for less twisting/binding. The biggest thing you notice is the quality of the girdle compared to the real thin stock cover. It's night and day difference. I'm not sure why they don't just put it on the car to start and bump the cost $200. It seems like it would be worth it to everyone involved.

[gr8snkbite]

true that. it's on my list..thx

[King Cobra]

Originally Posted by gr8snkbite

true that. it's on my list..thx

+1 Looks like money well spent.

[Darkside]

I just got done talking to Colin at Griggs Racing and they have a GT500 with over 800RWHP and its 8.8 rear end is holding up fine with the work they did on it (9" housing ends welded on) so if I have them do the rear end work at the same time they do the suspension I should be good to go.

[gr8snkbite]

Originally Posted by King Cobra

+1 Looks like money well spent.

money spent....