CSX4005LA engine runs rough

[68fastback]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have tons of emails and phone calls to both Roush and HST but so far no responses. I think I'm on my own.

I wonder if Shelby has records of exactly what ignition part numbers were installed ...and the engine serial (if not on engine somewhere) ...possibly with that info Roush might be able to recommend what pieces to upgrade to ...that they use on the current version of the same crate engine. Possibly SAAC has registry info on it? Still would be nice to find the core problem before replacing stuff. Might it be as simple as abused plug wires since it affects 3 cylinders? ...good luck!!

[King Cobra]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Yes, we will go exactly that route. The plugs and wires are telling us something. The distributor does make a sound that can be heard from a certain angle (it just started Sunday and at first I thought it was fan belt).
I was thinking of pulling one of the valve covers this weekend. One side (the one with two cyls. bad) is easy to get to as are the plugs on that side.

Just from what I've read, the distributor is where I would start.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 68fastback

I wonder if Shelby has records of exactly what ignition part numbers were installed ...and the engine serial (if not on engine somewhere) ...possibly with that info Roush might be able to recommend what pieces to upgrade to ...that they use on the current version of the same crate engine. Possibly SAAC has registry info on it? Still would be nice to find the core problem before replacing stuff. Might it be as simple as abused plug wires since it affects 3 cylinders? ...good luck!!

Shelby didn't do any of that. Shelby built only the roller (frame, body, wiring harness, fuel tank). (All Cobras, regardless of who you get them from are that way, as are GT40's etc.)

Once you get the roller the power train (engine, trans, sometimes differential) is installed. You can do that yourself or you have the roller drop shipped to a "finisher" (there are several). Most of the dealers listed by Shelby, Superformance, Backdraft, etc. will also finish the car for you. HST (where my car was built) is one of them.

In the US you take "title" to the Roller and you get a Shelby signed MSO [Manufacturers Statement of Origin - the 0'th title]. That paper is delivered to the owner regardless of who finishes the powertrain. For cars delivered to foreign countries (as mine was, originally to Mexico) HST delivered a fully finished vehicle. This is how you get a 1965 Cobra. If this process were not followed then Shelby (or Superformance, Backdraft, etc) would be a "manufacturer" and the car would have to meet modern safety and emissions regulations. Somehow a Cobra with side and front airbags, catalytic converters, 5MPH bumper, etc. just wouldn't look the same. I wonder if anyone has ever photochopped what a 2010 Cobra would look like ?

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by King Cobra

Just from what I've read, the distributor is where I would start.

I pulled the plug from one of the theoretically offending cylinders (it was easy to get to) and it didn't look wet or badly fouled. Carnut sent me some ignition info and I think I'm going to resort to old techonlogy testing - pull the plug wire, turn off the fuel pump, crank it and see if I get spark.

I did get some more info from Roush for confirming correct installation of the ignition and verification that all of the throttle bodies are properly synchronized. It takes some old style tools (a manomometer to check vacuum on the "Weber intakes") that are hard to come by - noone around here is going to have them. I'm hoping Roush will check me out a toolkit.

[twobjshelbys]

Does anyone have an Edelbrock "Uni-Syn Carburetor Balancing Instrument" #4025?

[68fastback]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Shelby didn't do any of that. Shelby built only the roller (frame, body, wiring harness, fuel tank). (All Cobras, regardless of who you get them from are that way, as are GT40's etc.)

Once you get the roller the power train (engine, trans, sometimes differential) is installed. You can do that yourself or you have the roller drop shipped to a "finisher" (there are several). Most of the dealers listed by Shelby, Superformance, Backdraft, etc. will also finish the car for you. HST (where my car was built) is one of them.

In the US you take "title" to the Roller and you get a Shelby signed MSO [Manufacturers Statement of Origin - the 0'th title]. That paper is delivered to the owner regardless of who finishes the powertrain. For cars delivered to foreign countries (as mine was, originally to Mexico) HST delivered a fully finished vehicle. This is how you get a 1965 Cobra. If this process were not followed then Shelby (or Superformance, Backdraft, etc) would be a "manufacturer" and the car would have to meet modern safety and emissions regulations. Somehow a Cobra with side and front airbags, catalytic converters, 5MPH bumper, etc. just wouldn't look the same. I wonder if anyone has ever photochopped what a 2010 Cobra would look like ?

Thanks, Tony ...I was aware Shelby can't complete the US builds but I thought since it was destined for Mexico they might have ...forgot that you mentioned HST. Just curious, who are they (HST)?

Yeah, the rollover tests would be tough to pass too

[65SC]

I know how you feel Tony. Mines getting a complete build inspection from head to toe. The dealer really did a poor job with mine. All I can say is somebody won't be happy next month.

[65SC]

Originally Posted by 68fastback

I wonder if Shelby has records of exactly what ignition part numbers were installed ...and the engine serial (if not on engine somewhere) ...possibly with that info Roush might be able to recommend what pieces to upgrade to ...that they use on the current version of the same crate engine. Possibly SAAC has registry info on it? Still would be nice to find the core problem before replacing stuff. Might it be as simple as abused plug wires since it affects 3 cylinders? ...good luck!!

Need to go thru the dealer, trust me, Gary P will tell you to contact the dealer.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 68fastback

Thanks, Tony ...I was aware Shelby can't complete the US builds but I thought since it was destined for Mexico they might have ...forgot that you mentioned HST. Just curious, who are they (HST)?

Yeah, the rollover tests would be tough to pass too

HST International in San Diego. (HST International, Inc.). They are big into alternate fuel vehicles, mostly electric, and other kinds of stuff, e.g., armored vehicles.

They are also a Cobra dealer.

[68fastback]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

HST International in San Diego. (HST International, Inc.). They are big into alternate fuel vehicles, mostly electric, and other kinds of stuff, e.g., armored vehicles.

They are also a Cobra dealer.

Yeah, they are into a lot of interesting stuff!

Says that since 2003 they've been making the CSX continuation series in Tijuana ..."Rollers" to the US market and whole cars outside US where permitted.

I like the plug-electric Mustangs ...0-60 3.9 sec. ;-)

[twobjshelbys]

I believe HST may provide a significant number of the actual Shelby bodies to Vegas and I think I'd heard they were the sole supplier of the fiberglass bodies to SAI. I don't know if this includes the tubular frame (i.e., the rest of the roller) or if SAI still does them. I also believe they were the manufacturer of all of the carbon fiber bodies to Shelby. So mine (while it has Shelby's signature on the glove box cover) probably never saw Vegas and probably went straight from Tijuana to Mexico City (and only crossed the border when the dealer in San Diego bought it). Shelby aluminum bodies come Kirkham or from Poland (if you want to pay more). My car is a Shelby CSX4000 series car and is in the registry.

[68fastback]

Thanks for all the insight, Tony ...hope you find the problem. She is a beauty!!!!!

[twobjshelbys]

More about what I found tonight but does anyone know of someone with a chassis dyno in the Boulder area (or Loveland/Ft Collins), or Denver if nothing closer.

Throttle bodies are all jacked up and adjustments ran into a roadblock of "it says this shouldn't be but doesn't say what to do if it is", plus the next adjustment after this would require the electronic fuel injection controller link and WOT adjustments that I'm sure should be done on a dyno and not on the driveway.

It runs better though.

[68fastback]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

More about what I found tonight but does anyone know of someone with a chassis dyno in the Boulder area (or Loveland/Ft Collins), or Denver if nothing closer.

Throttle bodies are all jacked up and adjustments ran into a roadblock of "it says this shouldn't be but doesn't say what to do if it is", plus the next adjustment after this would require the electronic fuel injection controller link and WOT adjustments that I'm sure should be done on a dyno and not on the driveway.

It runs better though.

Tony, dunno where dyno might be in Boulder area but was thinking the guys at the Shelby American Collection museum in Boulder might know of one? (303) 516-9565, 5020 Chaparral Ct.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 68fastback

Tony, dunno where dyno might be in Boulder area but was thinking the guys at the Shelby American Collection museum in Boulder might know of one? (303) 516-9565, 5020 Chaparral Ct.

I talked with Dave (I stop by there frequently). I might have been in luck if I had a realy Ford 427FE Sideoiler with dual quads. He doesn't even know what Fuel Injection is, and what's a Roush? (Seriously, they don't have the equipment either.) I got a lead on a guy in Evergreen and a guy that runs a speed shop in Loveland that while they might not have a dyno have access to one... Working... The problem is going to be to find someone who has the equipment to work on the Roush setup. I think the software and basic fuel injection and airflow setup is used by others so it's a matter of finding them, but they're kind of rare around here.

[Carnut]

You might have to tow it to Phoenix, there are probably a half dozen shops that can fix it.

[68fastback]

From the Mustangdyne.com website, below are all the Mustang dynos listed in CO, but dunno if that's usefull -lol.

I notice that Heritage Ford in Loveland is a Roush dealer, but that problably just means they sell Roush 'stangs.


Colorado Dyno ShopsCompanyAddressPhoneDynoA.P.E. Arden's Garage 2670 S Delaware Street
Denver, CO 80223
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=A.P.E.+Arden's+Garage&address=2670+S +Delaware+Street&city=Denver&state=CO&zipcode=8022 3&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 548-8827
Email MD-600 Aims Community College Greeley, CO 80634 MD-100 ATS Diesel Performance 5293 Ward Road
Arvada, CO 80002
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=ATS+Diesel+Performance&address=5293+ Ward+Road&city=Arvada&state=CO&zipcode=80002&count ry=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(800) 949-6002 MD-1750 Autos West 6620 North Pinewood Drive
Parker, CO 80134
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Autos+West&address=6620+North+Pinewo od+Drive&city=Parker&state=CO&zipcode=80134&countr y=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 660-9986 MD-250 Cartech, Inc. 1730 West Mississippi Ave.
Denver, CO 80223
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Cartech,+Inc.&address=1730+West+Miss issippi+Ave.&city=Denver&state=CO&zipcode=80223&co untry=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 922-9393 MD-250 Chase Automotive Aurora, CO (303) 344-4670 DADC 460 South Lipan St
Denver, CO 80233
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=DADC&address=460+South+Lipan+St&city =Denver&state=CO&zipcode=80233&country=USA&cid=lfm aplink" target=_blank>Map It MD-250 Diesels Only 1400 W. Alameda
Denver, CO 80223
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Diesels+Only&address=1400+W.+Alameda &city=Denver&state=CO&zipcode=80223&country=USA&ci d=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 778-6511 MD-250 Dragon Race Engineering Inc. 2275 W. Midway Blvd. Unit C
Broomfield, CO 80020
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Dragon+Race+Engineering+Inc.&address =2275+W.+Midway+Blvd.+Unit+C&city=Broomfield&state =CO&zipcode=80020&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 438-1571 MD-1750 Houska Automotive 899 Riverside Drive
Fort Collins, CO 80524
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Houska+Automotive&address=899+Rivers ide+Drive&city=Fort Collins&state=CO&zipcode=80524&country=USA&cid=lfm aplink" target=_blank>Map It(970) 482-0156 MD-250 John Elway Dodge (Autonation) 9995 Arapahoe Road
Englewood, CO 80112
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=John+Elway+Dodge+(Autonation)&addres s=9995+Arapahoe+Road&city=Englewood&state=CO&zipco de=80112&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(817) 222-8581 MD-250 Matthews Automotive Super Shop 1444 Vista View Dr.
Longmont, CO 80504
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Matthews+Automotive+Super+Shop&addre ss=1444+Vista+View+Dr.&city=Longmont&state=CO&zipc ode=80504&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 682-4334 MD-IMP Nine Second Racing 6900 W. 117th Ave. Suite 300E
Broomfield, CO 80020
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Nine+Second+Racing&address=6900+W.+1 17th+Ave.+Suite+300E&city=Broomfield&state=CO&zipc ode=80020&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 499-7223 MD-AWD-500 Progressive Auto & Performance 2061 W Hamilton Place
Englewood, CO 80110
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=Progressive+Auto+&+Performance&addre ss=2061+W+Hamilton+Place&city=Englewood&state=CO&z ipcode=80110&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 761-4232 MD-750 SR-Tuning, LLC 2905 E Gunnison Rd.
Colorado Springs, CO 80909
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=SR-Tuning,+LLC&address=2905+E+Gunnison+Rd.&city=Color ado Springs&state=CO&zipcode=80909&country=USA&cid=lfm aplink" target=_blank>Map It(719) 573-4443
Email MD-AWD-500 The Carb Shop 2101 West Cornell Ave.
Englewood, CO 80110
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=The+Carb+Shop&address=2101+West+Corn ell+Ave.&city=Englewood&state=CO&zipcode=80110&cou ntry=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 781-1118 MD-1750 The Emissions Clinic 7355 North Sheridan Blvd.
Westminster, CO 80003
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=The+Emissions+Clinic&address=7355+No rth+Sheridan+Blvd.&city=Westminster&state=CO&zipco de=80003&country=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(303) 426-4764 MD-750 TJ's Auto Performance 261 Broadway Ave.
Alamosa, CO 81101
<A href="http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?title=TJ's+Auto+Performance&address=261+Br oadway+Ave.&city=Alamosa&state=CO&zipcode=81101&co untry=USA&cid=lfmaplink" target=_blank>Map It(719) 587-3624 MD-1750

Sorry for the bizarre formatting ...doesn't show that way in edit mode.

[twobjshelbys]

Thanks! I already talked to Heritage. Like most of the others they disavow all knowledge of the engines.

Some of the dyno guys are known only to make their units available to "tuners" and so don't have the equipment to work on the Roush engine. Maybe one of them will know someone who does. There is someone in Evergreen that does it and I called them.

[twobjshelbys]

So since Carnut asked here is the latest in the continuing saga.




I still haven't gotten it totally nailed but there has been a revelation.

Every since I'd gotten it I'd noticed that the engine took a long time to warm up and it never did feel like it was right. Last Thursday I took it to a meeting with some old friends and noticed that the water temp was hot -110*C where it used to struggle to get to 80*C. So I figured the thermostat was stuck closed (and before that it dawned on me that it had been stuck open.)

Saturday I changed the thermostat (a total of about 15 minutes with a trip to find one, plus the trip to the local hardware to get a hose clamp that was previously stripped).

Anyway, when I got it back together I took it for a spin to warm it up. The water temp went to about 80-85C - just about right for a 180F thermo. THen the oil temp gauge finally registered.

And the 4000RPM problem is gone. The only thing I can figure is that the fuel injection system has another engine temp sensor and was in safe mode waiting for the engine to warm up. Today I took it for a longer ride and indeed it seems much better now. I still think it runs a little rough at low RPM but I am slowly peeling the onion.

I did finally connect with a guy in Evergreen - EPS (Evergreen Performance Systems) that works on classic mustangs and 289 Cobras and other stuff. Link to their website:

EPS

They have both engine and chassis dynos. As soon as I get the software for the laptop and the cable I'll bring it down. Walt called me while I was on the way back from the airport and said he is upgrading his dyno and wanted to know if I could wait since his results would be much better in a month or so. Not a problem given the above revelations.

[Johnny Lupara]

..glad to hear of this, I am sure this is a big relief to be making progress on the diagnosis.....John